Is Jesus God As The Father Is God? Is The Holy Spirit Also God? Is The Trinity Real? Mainstream Christianity Says Yes. The Bible Says No.

It’s been quite a while since I last posted on my blog. I figured I’d come back with a widely controversial topic to discuss. Trinitarianism. Most churches today teach that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same. God is God and Jesus is also God. Oh yes, don’t forget that the Holy Spirit is also God. They are equal yet distinctly different. They are the same yet not the same. There are so many things wrong with that belief. This is one topic I dreaded writing about because of the fear of backlash within the Christian community. This is a belief that many, if not most, Christians hold dear. However, the Bible is very clear that God is the Father and Jesus is the son. The Holy Spirit is neither. The Spirit is a gift left to us to draw us closer to God until the return of His Son. The Bible doesn’t include any verses where Jesus claims to be God or that His followers call Him God. There are many that call Him the son, the messiah, son of man, etc…, but no mention of Him being God.

Jesus does say in John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.” This verse is where a lot of Christians get the idea that He literally means that He and His Father are the same exact being. However, when you read this verse, you need to leave it within the proper context. What was Jesus talking about? Who was He talking to? John 10 is about Jesus talking to the Pharisees and explaining How He was the Good Shepherd (verse 11) and how He could give people eternal life (verse 28) if they follow Him. The Pharisees are the ones who accuse Him of saying He is God  and want to stone Him for it in verse 33 ““We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Now why did they accuse Him of saying He was God? He claimed He could save the people and reward them with eternal life, something the Pharisees thought only God could do. So what was Jesus’s response? He says in verses 34-38 Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’ If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” So what does Jesus mean here? Not only does he say that He and the Father are one in verse 30, now He is saying that The Father is in Him and He is in The Father in verse 38. Jesus is speaking of the nature of God and His character. He is saying that His views on things are the same as His Father’s and Jesus is acting on behalf of His Father. He clearly admits in verse 36 that He said He was the Son of God which was considered blasphemy. He didn’t say He was God but that He and His Father were unified. They were one. One as in one mind, one purpose, one plan for mankind. Not one being. That was never said nor was it implied here. We twisted that verse and tried to turn the Son into something He is not.

There are so many verses in the Bible that clearly show that Jesus was the Son of God. There are none that show He is the same as God Himself. Remember, God is the Father. God is the Father of all creation. He is eternal and Jesus is eternal. Yet they will be eternally different. John 1:14 is a verse people use to say that God left Heaven to become a man on Earth in the form of Jesus. Saying that John 1:14 proves that God became man is absurd. Here’s what it says: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” The only thing this verse does is further prove that Jesus was the Son of God and That He was also “The Word”. it clearly refers to Him as The son who came from The Father. To say this verse means something else is troubling to me. Let’s go back a few verses to John 1;1. John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This can be confusing because if the Bible says Jesus is The Word and here in John 1:1 it says that The Word was God, then Jesus must be God, right?  Look at the very next verse. John 1:2 says “He was with God in the beginning.” How can verse 1 be true and verse 2 be true if they are so conflicting? Is the Bible saying that Jesus is God and He was with himself in the beginning? No. John was trying to convey the idea that Jesus was divine like His Father (verse 1) yet a separate entity from His Father (verse 2). Jesus and God share divinity and Holiness. They are both members of the same godly family, yet they are not both the same yet different God. I read an article that helps to explain this concept. Here is a link to that:

http://ichthys.com/mail-John%201-1.htm

There are a lot of verses in the Bible that would not only be confusing if Jesus were the same being as God, but would just be silly because they would imply that Jesus talked about, talked to, and prayed to himself a lot. Let’s look at some of those now:

Matthew 11:25-26 “At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.” This would be a little weird hearing Jesus saying this to Himself about Himself, now wouldn’t it?

Luke 22:42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Now if Jesus were God, in this verse He would be asking Himself to take away the cup, but if not then He will do His own will. Sounds a little ridiculous, does it not? This is a great example of how Jesus the Son and God the Father are separate beings. Jesus did not know what the will of the Father was at that point or He wouldn’t have pleaded for Him to take it away from Him. He said “…not my will, but yours be done.” Pretty obvious that there are two parties involved in this conversation. If Jesus were fully man and fully God, if they were truly the same person in separate forms, as we are taught to believe in church, then explain why Jesus is scared and why He pleads to His Father. Explain why He does that. Explain why Jesus’s crucifixion means anything at all. If He was God Himself, then His death and resurrection mean nothing. An immortal God putting on a show and dying only to come back to life in 3 days would not do much good to sway the people. Now an immortal God who had His son take the form of a man and then turn His back on Him as He died on a cross, that would be something else. God, the immortal being who knows all before it happens, would not be scared and wonder what His own will was when it came to the cross. Jesus, the son who is eternal, yet came to Earth to be born a man, by His own admission does not know all the Father knows. Look at Mark 13:32 where Jesus is talking about the end times and His return. He said “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” Again, Jesus reaffirms that He and His Father are two very different beings. They are clearly not the same one being. Why wouldn’t the Son know the day if He was the same as the Father? Jesus is the son of God who, though related to God and possessing divinity, was born here as a man in order that He might save us all. He was a man who had human emotions and human concerns and fears. He was a man who prayed to the Almighty (who was not Himself by the way, but His Father). He possessed great powers and was our savior and our King. He is so much to all of us. He just isn’t the same being as God the Father.

John 12:27-30 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine.” There is no doubt if you read these verses, that Jesus and His Father are separate. He was on Earth when a voice from Heaven (God’s voice) came down and everyone heard it. Was Jesus throwing His voice to play tricks on people? Was Jesus a master illusionist who got a kick out of deceiving the masses? No. He was the Son of God doing what He came here to do. He came to save mankind to bring honor and glory to His Father. His Father who is the one and only God.

Mark 16:19 says “When the Lord Jesus had finished talking with them, he was taken up into heaven and sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand.” Now would it make any sense at all for Jesus to return to Heaven to take His place of Honor at the right hand of Himself? No! Again the Bible is clear that the two are separate. The tradition of the church says they are the same yet cannot explain how that is possible. The Bible, the very word of God, clearly shows otherwise. It’s obvious which we should believe. Again we need to remember Mark 7:8 which says “You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” This verse can be applied to any situation in which we hold on to our human traditions instead of God’s truth. Human traditions tend to steal the show and we allow it to happen. One of God’s commands is to know His word. We have let that command go and instead rely on man’s version which is in conflict with the truth.

But what about the trinity? Isn’t everything explained by accepting the idea that the trinity is biblical proof that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God? The trinity idea is more confusing than it is helpful. The trinity is a concept that was created by a group of men to explain how God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit can be a three-in-one God. The Bible talks about all three but doesn’t say that they are all one. There is a Father. There is a Son. There is a Holy Spirit. However, the Son and Holy Spirit come from God the Father. God sent His Son and His Son gave us the Holy Spirit. God is I Am. God is the creator. God set His plan in motion. God is the one who said in Matthew 17:5 “… This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” God the Father in all His wisdom would not have said something like this if what He really meant was, “Look at me down there. I am so pleased with myself. Listen to me… Not the Father “me” up here, but the Jesus “me” down there of course.” You see, Jesus and God are related. Father and Son who have always been. Jesus came to Earth to be born a human after existing since the beginning as a divine being who has always been with His Father. God the Father is in Heaven and has always been. He sent His son, not Himself to fulfill His plan. The fact of the matter is that the “Trinity” is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is another manmade church teaching that has become widely believed but never explained…mostly because is doesn’t make much sense. There is an article on the UCG.org website that explains this better and includes a quote from A.W. Tozer.  “Religious writer A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy, states that the Trinity is an “incomprehensible mystery” and that attempts to understand it “must remain forever futile.” He admits that churches, “without pretending to understand,” have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).” The link to this article can be found below:

http://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/is-god-a-trinity/is-the-trinity-biblical

There is also a video that helps to explain the trinity concept and why it is a false and harmful doctrine and I have provided a link to it:

http://www.ucg.org/beyond-today/beyond-today-television-program/is-god-a-trinity

There are Many more examples of how the trinity concept is false and how the 3 beings (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are 3 separate, yet not equal parts of what people call the godhead. The Father and His son are not the same. They are not equal. Jesus Himself said in John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” Why would Jesus say that His Father is greater than Him  if He was the same as the Father or a “different yet equal” part of the trinity? He said what he said because He knows the truth. He knows that God is the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. John 17:3 says “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Again, very clear that Jesus and God are separate. The Father is the “only true God” and Jesus Christ was sent by Him. God AND Jesus. Not God is Jesus or Jesus is God but God AND Jesus.

I have had so many ideas and verses to use when thinking about this post for quite some time. I’m not very good at taking notes so many of them have been lost. However, I still felt the need to share what I could on this subject and help others who may be struggling with the concept of a triune God. The so-called 3-in-1 God. There are 3 beings, Father, Son and Spirit, but do not waste the time and effort to try and figure out how they can be the same yet different. You won’t be able to explain it  using the Bible because it’s not in there. If it’s not in there, then any explanation of this concept would have to come from elsewhere. Elsewhere is not a place you should go to get your biblical facts. The facts only come from the Bible and only from God’s revelation to us. You may love Jesus. You may love His Father. You may rely on the Holy Spirit to guide you. However, you need to stop believing in the twisted version of the Bible that tries to blend all 3 together. I’ve said this in my past posts, but you need to open up God’s Word and find the truth for yourself. Stop relying on man to interpret it for you and stop accepting man’s ideas above God’s truth. Jesus loves you and the Father loves you. They love you so much that God’s spirit is living inside you. They love all of us. We need to love them enough to separate fact from fiction and truth from tradition. We need to do it now because we do not know when Jesus will return. “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

11 thoughts on “Is Jesus God As The Father Is God? Is The Holy Spirit Also God? Is The Trinity Real? Mainstream Christianity Says Yes. The Bible Says No.

  1. This is quite a timely post for me personally as I was raised as a Trinitarian though they (the denomination I was raised in) didn’t try to explain it because they didn’t seem to understand it themselves.

    Someone casually mentioned several months ago that they weren’t a Trinitarian. At the time this was a bit confusing to me as this person clearly believed in Father, Son, and Spirit. Over those months, I’ve kinda had that in the back of my mind when reading through the Bible and have hesitantly started considering many of the conclusions you listed here.

    Last week, someone casually mentioned the Great Commission and how its original form seems to not have contained “baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” When researching this, it seems to have come about during the Nicene Council in 325 AD. The original form seemed to be something like “making disciples in my name (Jesus) and teaching them all I have commanded.”

    As I study the Trinity concept more, I’m coming to see that it is heavily based in misappropriated scripture. The concept is taking time to sink in though. In the same way, I’ve come to other conclusions that seem to have been misunderstood, as I’ve been writing about some. Such concepts are outright rejected by many because of what they’ve been indoctrinated to believe. Many will go their entire lives without ever allowing certain concepts to be questioned because they think they are being doubtful and sinful. The more I allow questions personally, the more I’ve grown spiritually whether I come to the same conclusions in the end or not. A faith not tested doesn’t seem to grow.

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  2. So this post is 2 1/2 years old and today you commented to me that you’re a deist. Should I assume then that you don’t believe any longer what you wrote here about Jesus being divine?

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      1. I am open to truth. I follow where truth takes me, but I need more than scripture as proof. I need to see more evidence of God’s intervention in the world’s affairs or in my own life. I never wanted to be a skeptic of the Bible. I think that’s a common sentiment amongst former Christians. We didn’t want to lose faith. Faith was taken from us by revelations of truth.

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      2. Jesus, the historical Jesus, to me was a real person. He most likely was a great preacher who was charismatic enough to amass followers. History shows that it is more probable than not that he existed and that he was killed by orders of Pontius Pilate. There seems to be some extra-biblical evidence of that. However, there is no historical evidence of his resurrection. The Bible records the event. The Bible talks about people seeing him after he was raised. The Bible even says he appeared to more than 500 of his followers in 1 Corinthians 15:6. That seems like great evidence when there are more than 500 witnesses. However, we don’t have 500 independent accounts of that sighting. We have only 1. Paul’s. Paul is the presumed author of 1 Corinthians so the claim is his alone. There is not one other story from the 500, only his claim that it happened. So 1 person claiming that it happened is far less convincing than 500 different people saying it in their own words.

        Jesus to me now is similar to a Gandhi or a Mother Theresa. They were good people, even great people, with good intentions and great messages. But they were people, not divine. I would be more than willing to accept his divinity if I saw evidence of it. I prayed for that and I prayed for evidence that the Bible was true. However, these prayers (like all of my others) went unanswered. Jesus has not revealed himself to me. Not now. Not when I was a devout Christian. He is no more real or divine to me than Moses or Peter or Job. They are all characters in a book. Some may have existed. Some may not have. I believe Jesus did, but his story ended when the Bible did. That’s how I view him now.

        Again, I don’t close my doors and burn bridges forever just because I’m stubborn. I am more than willing to be proven wrong. In fact, I wanted that more than anything. I’ve mentioned this before, I never wanted to lose faith. I’d love to have it back. But showing me the Bible as proof won’t get the job done. I’ve studied it and prayed about it more times than I can count. I need more than stories. I need to experience it.

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      3. I have written a little bit about being a deist, though I don’t have an idea of who or what God is. A deist recognizes a creator as revealed in creation, but any descriptions of God or commentary about his character are given in the Bible or some other religion’s holy book . Without these sources, we have nothing to go on as far as understanding who God is or what he is like. Recognizing a creator simply means that there are no accidents and there isn’t randomness, but rather order. I can’t know from looking at the sunset what God looks like. I can’t understand what his language might be like from hearing a bird singing. I don’t know his thoughts towards people are by watching the ocean waves rolling in. I can see the creation and I can see the beauty. Anything more than that can only be based on assumptions. I can assume that our thoughts about God and our desire to know more about God mean that we were created that way, instilled with wonder and awe, but I cannot prove that. I can assume if most of us are on a spiritual journey then there must be a spiritual reason for that. I cannot prove that either. I see so much that goes against the scientific explanations such as random chance and evolution.

        There are some good books out there written by Dr. Kenneth Poppe entitled “Exposing Darwinism’s Weakest Link” and “Reclaiming Science From Darwinism”. These books show the near impossibility of randomness versus order. I believe in adaptation, which is change within a species (microevolution) such as hair color, size, thickness of skin, etc… These changes are observable. Changing from one species to another (macroevolution) cannot be observed and the evidence “proving” it is faulty and unreliable so I don’t believe it.

        I want to know God, but as a human all I have to go on is what is observable to me. What I can experience with my 5 senses. His attributes can only be speculated on because Biblical accounts do not equate to personal experiences. Someone in the Bible can say God is like or God is like that. I can believe by faith that those people are correct or I can say I don’t know because those experiences with God are not my own. I can want to believe something and hope it is true, but it is a belief, not proof. I don’t know what God’s voice sounds like if God has one. I don’t know what a burning bush looks and sounds like. I haven’t seen a pillar of fire or Jesus walk on water. Again, it comes down to faith and trust. If I believe those stories, I can say God is like this or that and be confident in my conviction. If I question the Bible, then the stories as well as the description of God become suspect.

        I have written a couple of blog posts detailing some of my feelings but as I have said, no one can truly know what God is like whether Christian or otherwise. Christians have others’ words in the Bible and the rest of us have only nature to try to describe God. Here are a few posts of mine:

        https://learningwhogodisandwhoheisnot.wordpress.com/2017/12/15/yes-i-am-a-deist-finally-accepting-who-i-am-and-no-longer-stressing-over-who-i-am-not/

        https://learningwhogodisandwhoheisnot.wordpress.com/2017/12/22/i-was-lost-with-religion-i-am-now-finding-my-way-without-it-adjusting-to-my-new-life-of-living-in-the-middle/

        https://learningwhogodisandwhoheisnot.wordpress.com/2017/12/29/having-faith-can-be-a-good-thing-but-having-blind-faith-can-be-dangerous/

        https://learningwhogodisandwhoheisnot.wordpress.com/2018/01/08/there-is-no-doubt-that-doubt-will-come-how-will-we-respond/

        The last link is to my most recent post, a post about doubt. It doesn’t really show how I view God, but it does help show what my position is on the Bible and religion. Thanks for responding and having a civilized conversation. Take care.

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